Trump wins.

Exchanges of whatever comes to mind - not necessarily boat related

Trump wins.

Postby Tom Overs » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:50 am

Well.... the back stabbing is over, the accusations are finished, the political fiasco has ended. All I can say is......

At least you now have a great looking "First Lady" :twisted:

Tom.
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Postby Tom Overs » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:10 am

You have got to smile. My first email this morning.
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Postby Bob Lowe » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:24 am

I don't believe you understand the American (USA) psyche, Tom. 8)
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Postby Tom Overs » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:51 am

Bob Lowe wrote:I don't believe you understand the American (USA) psyche, Tom. 8)


Sorry Bob.... I think I do. Maybe I should have posted these in "The Lighter Side"

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Postby Marin Faure » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:39 pm

Tom--- Here's my take on the situation....

A nation is not made great by its leader. It’s made great by its people. And that greatness doesn’t come from policies or programs but from values. Great values result in great policies and programs. Poor values bring the opposite.

The 2016 election has disappointed me in two ways. One is the incredibly poor choices we were given with regards to president. Regardless of one’s personal preference, conservative or progressive, there were far better people on both sides of the fence than Trump and Hillary. Some of them ran in the primaries, others never surfaced at all.

The fact that these two are the ones we ended up with leads me to my other, far greater disappointment. Which is that this election provided a crystal clear illustration of the diminished values of the people of this country. As of last night, the “official” image of the US has become one of ignorance, exclusion, egotism, dishonesty, misogyny, bigotry, revenge and greed. In other words, the values that have characterized Donald Trump his entire life. And as a very wise person told me years ago, "people don't change. They just get more of the same."

It speaks volumes about a nation when at least half and probably more of its people see fit to put those values ahead of respect, responsibility, honesty, integrity, knowledge and compassion.

I firmly believe that for several decades the US has been sliding down the slope to “once great” mediocrity. I believe this is inevitable--- it’s happened to every once-great and powerful nation from Egypt to Rome to England and it flies in the face of thousands of years of history to think the US is any different.

This slide will occur regardless of who the leader happens to be. The only effect a leader might have is a slight deceleration or acceleration of the slide. The slide itself and when it begins is, in my opinion, tied directly to the changing values of the people who make up the nation. And the values of an increasing number of people in the US have been changing for the worse--- due to the inevitability of human nature’s response to the changes humans encounter--- for some time now.

We took a giant step down the slope last night as we increasingly align ourselves with diminished values as exemplified by Trump. (Had we elected Hillary we would have taken the same step but perhaps not one quite as big.) PS-- For an interesting perspective on the Hillary aspect read Bob's thread titled "Thomas Sowell."

In the global picture, the geographic point of “greatness” is simply continuing its slow, inevitable creep around the planet in a westerly direction as it always has been. China was doing great things (relatively speaking) as a civilization when Europe was thrashing about in the murk that was the Dark Ages. Today that point is still moving west, heading to Asia once again.

The US had its turn but the old cliché “you can never go back” is based in reality. As much as Trump and all the people who chose him over positive values are desperate to return to 1950, it will never happen. It can’t happen because in today’s world the conditions of 1950 are impossible to recreate. In 1950, the US economy had no competition. Today, our economy, from the airplanes Boeing makes to the cars we drive to the food we eat is tied to the rest of the increasingly competitive world. Breaking that tie, as Trump and his supporters are so eager to do, will not return us to the economy of 1950. It will, however, largely exclude us from the economy of the 21st century.

I remember, as perhaps some of the folks on this forum do, too, the black woman in the crowd in (I think) Chicago who, when it was announced that Obama had won in November, 2008, shouted, “Hallelujah, now I don’t have to worry about my rent or paying for my food because he's going to take care of us,” or words to that effect. I wonder how much her life has changed today?

As I’ve said before with regards to the choices the people of this country make, we are going to get exactly what we have earned and deserve.
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Postby Tom Overs » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:22 pm

Interesting Marin, most of which could have been written about Britain. You will notice that I didn't write GREAT Britain. We also were once a Great and proud Nation, times move on change is a constant.

But, here in the UK we have Teresa May as our Prime minister (who given time should be a great PM) depending on Brexit and Nicola Sturgen as first Minister in Scotland who given time will prove to be the biggest mistake to ever hit Scotland. Each Nation has its problems and no Politician can please all of the people.

Both the USA and Britain are democratic states, something we should all be proud of, even if at times we have to just smile and live with the outcome.

The origional posts were just a bit of fun.

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Postby Marin Faure » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:05 pm

Yes, I've been reading news articles from the Guardian and Times about Nicola Sturgen. Seems a bit of a fly in the ointment (assuming one feels that Article 50 should be implemented). Teresa May, based solely on what I've read about her, seems to be a level-headed, competent person. Perhaps we should have captured her earlier this year and made her run for president. :-) Or perhaps she'd like to take on the task of managing us as well as you folks over there. It can't be that difficult-- King George III did it for awhile with no major problems that I know of...

One "positive" I can think of is that right now--- today--- our next president is still a clean sheet of paper as far as doing the job is concerned. With no previous experience in elected office and with no obvious obligations to either the Democrats or Republicans the job is his to succeed or fail at. As is always the case with a totally unfamiliar situation, reality will most likely fall somewhere between the two extremes.
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Postby Marin Faure » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:31 pm

Marin Faure wrote:Today, our economy, from the airplanes Boeing makes to the cars we drive to the food we eat is tied to the rest of the increasingly competitive world. Breaking that tie, as Trump and his supporters are so eager to do, will not return us to the economy of 1950. It will, however, largely exclude us from the economy of the 21st century.


One could make the same statement about breaking the tie between the UK and the EU, but I wouldn't. I don't think it's the same at all. I understand that a number of Leave supporters were wanting to return to the Britain of their younger days. But I think the potential exists for the UK to do better in today's world without the tight ties to the EU. "Potential" being the operative word.

This is a generality but I've observed and experienced that individuals tend toward better accomplishments when they're given (or they take) responsibility for the outcome. As opposed to being told at every turn what they can do, how to do it, and what they can't do.

I have good friends in France who thought the Common Market, which was created to facilitate business and trade between countries, was great but they absolutely despise the EU, which they view as a bunch of un-elected bureaucrats whose primary function is to build power by imposing restrictive rules and controls on just about everything, thereby beating down individual initiative and the pride of responsibility.

If this is truly the case then the people of the UK may well have given themselves the freedom to move forward to new successes by cutting their ties to the EU. This is very different than trying to go back to the successes of yesteryear.
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Postby Tom Overs » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:10 am

Your grasp on the EU situation is (IMO) correct and your French friends are correct about it being for trade.

It has gone much further than it was originally designed. Having, as you stated, unelected burocrates pass rules not only on trade was a step too far for this Soverign State. One such rule was to prevent governments subsidising industry (Eg, the steel industry) we now don't have a British Steel industry, it owned by the Chinese...... Hmmm at the moment.

Trying to enforce migration by stating how many refugees (term used loosely) was/is a step too far for many. Brexit will have some exciting times ahead, it will be a divorce that will be very messy. The threats of goods embargo will be just that, threats. If they impose penalties, Germany will need to step in as their biggest export car market is the Uk. 20% of their cars are exported here.

I may have a short sighted view of this but, we live in an ever increasing world trade market. We buy from countries now that as a child I wouldn't even know existed. We need to get out there and push British goods.

As for your next President..... It seems that there are some who don't understand what democracy actually means, a bit like some of the Scots that won't accept that the majority wanted to stay in the UK just as the majority in USA wanted Trump. As I stated in a previous post, " we just smile and take it"

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Postby George Southern » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:22 pm

All I have to say about the election result is, We have hired a Bus driver to fly the Airplane!
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Postby Marin Faure » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:46 pm

Tom-- Actually, as you may now know, the majority (albeit a very slim majority) of voters voted for Hillary. However the majority of electoral votes went to Trump. This is not new: for example Al Gore received the majority of the popular vote in 2000 but George Bush received the majority of electoral votes.

The electoral system we have makes for a rather problematic election process. As I understand it, the electoral system was originally set up to compensate for population distribution and differences due in part to slavery. It was an attempt to "even things out," but the elements it was designed to compensate for don't exist anymore. A growing number of people feel the electoral system should be ended and elections should be decided by a simple majority.
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Postby Bob Lowe » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:26 pm

Right, mob rule is the answer.

Let's forget that the country is not a democracy. It has no Constitution, no law of the land.

That is the Liberal way, isn't it? Change it to suit one's vision until one gets what is desired.........
Good luck,

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Postby Tom Overs » Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:34 am

Bob, it seems that both the Uk and USA have the same problems with the voting system. We're having serious problems with the Scottish first minister and the SNP (Scottish Nationalist Party) who no matter how many times they lose a vote.... It not the correct result.

1. Independence from the UK. LOST
2. Brexit LOST

Apparently, the majority in Scotland wanted to stay in the EU, but as they are part of the U.K. The majority of the U.K. overall wanted to leave.

It wasn't the outcome that she/they wanted and now constantly asks for another vote which was a "once in a lifetime" referendum.

I don't remember in the past that when a vote was over the losing side would complain and mob the streets. It must be a sign of the times.

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Postby Bob Lowe » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:28 am

I don't know how it is "over there", Tom, but in the USA, there seems to be some big money behind the organized violence and demonstrations b efore and since Trump was elected. It does not appear to be by and of the "people".

Seems that Soros and others are funding things, busing in paid outsiders to "protest" and create havoc, chaos, and destroy property as well as violence against the people, especially Trump supporters.

There are strict laws against this sort of behavior, but our present administration is not interested in enforcing those laws.

Perhaps the answer will end up being smaller government all around.

In the USA, the Federal government has usurped states rights over the years and may have too much centralized power. Seems as though that was part of the voters complaints.

Globalization may not be a good thing for the people.
Good luck,

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Postby Keith Morris » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:15 pm

He won the popular vote people..... the votes were not all in ... but they are now. Final #Election2016 numbers

PopularVote: #Trump: 62,972,226 #Clinton: 62,277,750
ElectoralCollege vote #Trump 306 #Clinton 232
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